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battle of the sexes

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haehne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote haehne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: battle of the sexes
    Posted: 21 July 2010 at 23:23
Originally posted by wingspan

Originally posted by haehne

i watched the clip of ma lin vs. kishikawa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-xD_n1Af3I) and i found the position in which ma lin ends his point at 0:35, 1:42, 2:47, 2:50 very interesting. is this due to his technique? due to his upper body strength? could women end a point like this, too (never seen it, that' s why i'm asking...)?


That sort of all out kill shot is very common in the men's game, you see it all the time especially by the Chinese men, but really everyone does it.  Seems to be much less common in the women's game though I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to do that.
 
to be honest: i cannot imagine a woman performing this shot, i don' t know why... and i can assure you that i like and highly appreciate women in general thus this has nothing to do with any macho kind of attitude.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wingspan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2010 at 03:38
Well maybe it's hard to imagine because it's so rare.  Off the top of my head I can't think of a single instance, not that I watch a lot of women's tt.  I'm sure if you scoured youtube you could find a few examples (though I'm not sure I would bet a lot on that!).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Izraphel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2010 at 10:31
women table tennis players produce weaker shots than men. that means sacrificing recovery to gain some extra power will probably do more harm than good. their opponent will probably still be able to return the shot.

i won't get any deeper into it since obviously people have different theories as to why women produce weaker shots.


Edited by Izraphel - 22 July 2010 at 10:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wingspan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2010 at 20:51
Originally posted by Izraphel

women table tennis players produce weaker shots than men. that means sacrificing recovery to gain some extra power will probably do more harm than good. their opponent will probably still be able to return the shot.


I would guess that this is probably correct.  The women currently are smaller and weaker than the men so the payoff on an all out kill shot is smaller and various coaching staffs around the world have figured out it's not worth it to train women to make a shot like this.

My question is still this: if you were to find and train a powerful woman athlete (ala Serena Williams or say, any woman with the strength of a 100m sprinter) from the start to play a power looping game would it be effective on the pro level?  Has it even been tried?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2010 at 21:50
Originally posted by Izraphel

women table tennis players produce weaker shots than men. that means sacrificing recovery to gain some extra power will probably do more harm than good. their opponent will probably still be able to return the shot. i won't get any deeper into it since obviously people have different theories as to why women produce weaker shots.

I don't know about that. Yes women can't spin the ball as powerfully but up to the table they smack the ball just as hard as the men. I say this as I do quite a lot of umpiring, and up close the more powerful women seem to generate as much power as the men in the over the table smash. My references arey about Naomi Owen and Kelly Sibley from the UK, but it could be that men don't smash as much.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote haehne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2010 at 13:02
since this has become quite a long thread with some very interesting points raised i tried to summarise the most important arguments to make it a bit more concise:
 

-To spin the ball heavily takes power. Women generally don't have the upper body strength of their male counterparts. thus men are better at "explosive power" due to their more developed upper bodies;

 

-female players tend to have better reflexes and stroke recuperation / rhythm than their male counterparts but men have faster hands / stroke;

 

-men tend to play with greater power due to testosterone and their “superior” physique;

 

-the small difference in the way female and male brains work. there are differences in spatial temporal awareness (females have one side of the brain relatively more developed and males the other when compared to each other);

 

-difference in motor skills can be observed in the wing dominance of most female players in both tennis and table tennis. women's tennis is backhand dominant because they are more comfortable using two hands, but even the vast majority of female table tennis players are backhand dominant. Even supposed forehand dominant female players still have awkward, stiff motions;

 

-female players lack impulse ( mass x speed);

 

-disadvantage concerning the female body, with its smaller moment of inertia (of arms), on the other hand this offers a much better base for shorter moves that are closer to their body, this is why they usually stay close to table and block/counter bh until one of they makes mistake. Furthermore males (generally) having greater power than females, they can also reach peak power quicker (partly to do with ability to generate greater torque I think) and in addition tend to have longer levers. So males have an inbuilt advantage of greater peak power, the ability to generate peak power more quickly and a longer lever system allowing for more speed;

 

-Small playing area in tt favours 'reaction talents' and make them more important in tt than "running-jumping" talents compared with lawn tennis for example. Thus the top tt women have a good chance against those male pros who have slower reactions;

 

-Top male table tennis players are more powerful than top female table tennis players because of gender differences in physiology;



Edited by haehne - 24 July 2010 at 13:04
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Honey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2010 at 13:25
I think some of the stuff in this thread is very old fashioned and simply out of date thinking.

Think about the whole picture, the classic thought of 'men are stronger than women' etc is very old and is really now embedded deep within everyone really, no one can deny this. So its really hard to get away from this thought.

I believe women are simply behind men in terms of reaching their potential. Most male related records are at their peak and only improving little by little, and womens are stepping up much faster. I think its only a matter of time before male records and achievements get caught up.

We are still in recovery from the time when males were dominant and there was no other way (apart from getting your head chopped off!)

Look at the numbers of men vs women in sport, there is bound to be a difference in standard, and once you have a few decent sports people its just a snowball effect. It will take centuries for females to catch up because the foundations set are so strong.

TT wise, I don't think there is any reason why a female couldn't come out and dominant the male game. I don't see why not.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Useless1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2010 at 15:18
I find the thinking to be quite modern, it's certainly inline with modern scientific knowledge and facts concerning physiological differences between men and women and the impact those physiological differences have on on sporting performance.
 
I do think female athletes have more scope to improve, I don't see them ever gettting to the level of men due to the physical disadvantages that nature had bestowed upon them in relation to their male counterparts.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Honey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2010 at 15:53
Originally posted by Useless1

I find the thinking to be quite modern, it's certainly inline with modern scientific knowledge and facts concerning physiological differences between men and women and the impact those physiological differences have on on sporting performance.
 


If we are talking physiological differences then I agree, no one could argue that, its fact. I was on about potential. Just look at Men's running records, pretty steady I'd say over the last few years, then compare that to women who's times are simply getting better and better.

I believe that women still have alot more to give. They are still getting used to being treated as equal to men. I firmly believe that in the future we will see more and more female role models and women in powerful positions. Looks at chefs, men dominate but slowly and slowly there are women entering the field, its a snowball effect that is going very slowly. Even a political female role model can inspire a young girl to work hard at her sport.

I think we aren't at a point where we can say whether women will ever be better than men at TT for one, as its a simple case of the right women haven't had the right opportunities and inspiration to fulfil their potential.

Why should you close the door on any young females ambition by telling them they physically aren't fast/strong/agile enough? The facts are there to be proven wrong anyway. Women aren't as good as Men at TT because they don't need to be, they don't compete. The gap will get smaller.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2010 at 00:03
They compete, but they have smaller shoulders/hips ratio then men, and shorter spin, and that is crucial for power in tt, together with male psychology, similar like in tennis.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AznTTprodigy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2010 at 08:03
Originally posted by Honey

Originally posted by Useless1

I find the thinking to be quite modern, it's certainly inline with modern scientific knowledge and facts concerning physiological differences between men and women and the impact those physiological differences have on on sporting performance.
 


If we are talking physiological differences then I agree, no one could argue that, its fact. I was on about potential. Just look at Men's running records, pretty steady I'd say over the last few years, then compare that to women who's times are simply getting better and better.

I believe that women still have alot more to give. They are still getting used to being treated as equal to men. I firmly believe that in the future we will see more and more female role models and women in powerful positions. Looks at chefs, men dominate but slowly and slowly there are women entering the field, its a snowball effect that is going very slowly. Even a political female role model can inspire a young girl to work hard at her sport.

I think we aren't at a point where we can say whether women will ever be better than men at TT for one, as its a simple case of the right women haven't had the right opportunities and inspiration to fulfil their potential.

Why should you close the door on any young females ambition by telling them they physically aren't fast/strong/agile enough? The facts are there to be proven wrong anyway. Women aren't as good as Men at TT because they don't need to be, they don't compete. The gap will get smaller.



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Hail there. I think that it comes down to the simpler case of two things.
The cultural phenomena of women being treated equally, which has only really opened up recently, compare this to the thousands of years of women being treat like a "weaker gender" and you have the answer of cultural suppression of female potential and possibility in sports, and other fields etc.

I do believe however, that women are at a physiological disadvantage in the sense of motor function, its relation to stroke technique etc. but NOT in a whole sense in generating power through "lever arms and impulse".

Why? Because a table tennis ball approximately weighs 2.7 grams. And table tennis bats even at their heaviest don't get too much heavier than say what? 250 grams? 300 grams?
You can't tell me the girl who looks like a twig can't swing hard enough, with the proper technique to out loop or out hit you with a 2.7 gram ball and a 200 gram racket!LOLLOLLOL
There simply isn't enough weight and resistance for brute strength to come into play imvho. But what seems to be lacking is the techniques and styles of course.
Because if the men vs women argument were to hold true, I could out hit or out loop any woman any where, at any time with the same technique. But we know that for a fact, that isn't true. Don't even try to lie and say it, or type it for that matter.TongueLOL

Women just need time to catch up. The only problem is that the men already have such a big head start. But manly muscles and body proportions only provide an advantage, not an answer. But time will tell I think.
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