Service returns!

Originally posted by wiggy63 last time had to develop a new service was when the rule changed to prevent the hiding of the contact point. It took TWO YEARS before I felt I was back to the same quality as before the rule change, and I practiced them alot. Nothing can be gained in half an hour.

Me too.  I had put a lot of effort into learning to hide my serves and perfecting it but the same motion that was letting me do that was also letting me regain my balance after serving and getting back into ready position.  It was really hard to retool after that.  And yet, it is probably a good rule.

Even the best players in the world can't serve low on request:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0Sw4zHR5c

One of the comments has a translation - "This is a post-training exercise that is used to relieve stress. Ma long sets up the paddle and you have to serve it between the net and the paddle. Liu Guo Liang is saying that anyone on the national team can serve that low regularly but when they are asked to do so, their mentalities changes. The pressure cause irregularities in you rmind so you arent able to perform regularly. The point is to just play with a normal mind set."

No No No. I feel like I speak Japanese. Possible that my english is bad.
Idea with stop practicing was joke.
Year and half I'm practicing tt 2-3 times a week, 2 hours sessions, where 1.5 hours I'm practicing shots and drils, and 30 mins playing matches. Plus tournament on saturday. Very often I spent 15-30 mins of session practicing services. I wanted to say that I know to serve well, and can do it even 2 minutes before match, but not on match. Looks to me that focusing on longer distance (opponent) prevents me to focus on short (serve and shot), and oposite, which is even possible because yesterday I was to eye doctor and found that I dont see well, and have to wear glasses.


Edited by garwor - 16 July 2010 at 11:31

Hm.....
I think its the concept of what constitutes practice that is the problem here. "Half an hour before a match" is not proper practice. It might help or it might not.
Serious practice means having a planned, regular weekly program over a period of 3 months perhaps. If you did that you should expect some definite improvement.
However, if you dont want to make that commitment, dont worry, TT can still be enjoyed without a serious approach

Originally posted by pingpongpaddy Originally posted by garwor This evening I wan on small tournament, there were very little people so I spent half an hour before first match practicing serves. That was very short serves, pretty good and consistent. Then first match started, I couldn't put more than 50% in field. Not to mention about serve returning problems, so I lost all matches, even from kids who I beat regularly. So, what are you going to DO about it??

Well, solution is obvious, to stop practicing serves :) The more I practice the less I know. I'm example of person who makes regres with practicing :) The same happened to me with chess many years ago. I made some initial progress with little of practicing, and then practiced more but only rich level where any amateur could beat me.
But I'll not switch to pimples ;)

Originally posted by garwor This evening I wan on small tournament, there were very little people so I spent half an hour before first match practicing serves. That was very short serves, pretty good and consistent. Then first match started, I couldn't put more than 50% in field. Not to mention about serve returning problems, so I lost all matches, even from kids who I beat regularly.

So, what are you going to DO about it??

a drill to help dealing with heavy spin on your own is to just toss the ball horizontally across your body into the paddle at an angle so the ball goes straight up with a lot of spin. as it comes down, send it back up again with the backhand side and repeat this over and over again.

it's like juggling the ball in soccer; you'll get a better feel for the angles you need to respond to certain quantities of spin and every time you touch the ball, your hands and body get a better feel for it.

i'm sure it's also been mentioned that you can practice your serves ad infinitum without needing a practice partner - serves, serve returns, and footwork are some of the most important fundamental skills to focus on when you're trying to get better because they are going to be crucial in the first few hits of every single point you play, where a killer loop may never see the light of day if you're not skilled enough to set it up.

ps - serve returns are all about placement! yeah, you need to read the serve and get it back over the net, but if it's right in the other dude's power zone, you've done very little to neutralize his service advantage.

one tactic for starting an attacking rally when the other guy is dedicated to out-pushing you is to vary the quantity of backspin on your pushes. if you can get him acclimated to pushing back heavy spin pushes, when you give him a low-moderate spin push, it'll pop up a bit to give you the opening for an attack.

the important thing in a pushing rally is to make sure your feet are doing the work. trying to initiate an attack when you're out of position when you're not completely comfortable looping against underspin is a sure way to lose points.

it's also worth saying that ideally, the push is a placement shot before it's a spin-shot. pushing deep to the elbow and wide to the wings, avoiding the center of the table and your opponent's power zones will put pressure on your opponent's footwork and, more than the spin-trickery that i mentioned above, will likely yield more mistakes and attackable balls that you can put away (or at least start a topspin rally with).

just make sure to play within your game when playing matches like these because "always pushing" opponents are all about control and will sacrifice aggression to achieve it - the opening will come if you keep moving them around and push for placement rather than aggressive spin.

there's some footwork drills posted in masatenisi.com if that's still up and running.

hope that helps.

Didn't I say that I'm bad at serve return? Many times in many threads? And all what I'm trying to do in this thread is to point this out. I don't know why you all spending time claiming the same. Some serve return tips/videos would be much better answer.

I have, lets say, both good and bad services. Good because I can produce really a lot different serves, and I'm winning lot of points by service only. But bad because of so much services, I cant remember all, just a few, so every time I have to improvise. Some serves I had few months ago I forgot totally. Also, because of improvising, I will fail on 30% serves.
So I know pretty well of advantage of good service.

Some players are good servers, some good rallyers, some both. Serving and receiving is actually just as, if not more important that hitting winners past players, and this is where confusion reigns with learning players, who want to run before they can walk, see how players at the top of the game consistently play attacking/winning strokes, yet fail to spot the significance of what was the precursor in the rally.

Edited by wiggy63 - 14 July 2010 at 13:27

Originally posted by garwor Originally posted by Honey Originally posted by garwor well, could be even worse...I'm practicing in club for year and still can lost in 3 sets to better/weaker opponent without any serve returned. I understand what you mean garwor, but surely if a player beats you consistently then he is a better player than you regardless of whether he is 'better/weaker' than you.  It doesn't matter if he is beating you only because he has a good serve, the bottom line is he beats you, so he is a better player than you. Judge your standard off results you achieve not by how good you think your shots are. Well. I said better/weaker and I mean both of them. Both very good players with good serves and good play, and weak players with only serve which not suits to me and nothing except this (like players who only simple push) . For example I have one very good player in my club, he has all shots just great. I play him from time to time, and I never was able to return his serve. Not to return well, but to return ball into his field. He continues to serve his same short serve on same place with variation in spin, tenths of serves, but no way I can return it. I can see spin sometimes, but this fact doesn't help. That's better player. Or, from time to time I play people who who cant attack, smash and block, neither chop, and who after my serve will almost certainly lost point, but I cant return his. (and it's not 10:10 because I always fail few of my serves :) ). For me it's weak player generally. He will lost to ones I can beat. But...he will beat me. I'm just anti talented for serve returns. In my club coach never teached this (except flip on simple balls without side or top spin), even when I asked for help, I got answer 'topspin everything!' which ofcourse doesn't work. Even with people I play regularly, and I know their serves, still there are problems. Could be uncontrollable equipment problem (I glue rubbers before play), but I had same problem even before gluing.

Garwor, that is all that really matters in the sense of judging "who is better". As Honey said, it doesn't matter if the only reason he is beating you is because of his serve. He is beating you. The first step here is to get off the high horse and say it. "He is better than me. For now."
The minute you think you are better than your opponent is when you risk losing more than just the match or the game. They say competition is there to show who is best. Serve and serve return are mandatory parts of the game. But looping, blocking, countering, chopping, and hitting the ball after the serve is not. However, because we like to win, you must hit the ball after the serve.  So the serve is a crucial and essential part of the game. Your "weaker" opponent has mastered this farther than you. So guess what? He is better than you in that aspect. And because you cannot jump that barrier yet, they beat you. They are better than you. There is no but, no excuse, or any other way around it. Telling yourself that they are worse than you as a player only makes it worse for you. They are better than you in some aspect of the game, so therefore, are still better than you, in some way. You may have them beat in every other aspect, but that doesn't make you the better player. They may be a "weaker" player than you in some aspects, but they are not a weaker player. No one really is, I more respectfully like to refer to such players as less experienced. Because that's what it really comes down to. more or less experience.

And that's what serve return is all about. Experience returning different spin, in different places, at different heights and speeds. There is only one way to get better. Start receiving. There is a player at my club who turns 70 this year. I can beat him in almost every aspect of the game. I am generally more consistent, my technique is better, and my youth provides me with strength, endurance, and speed.

But he's been playing table tennis for around 55 years. 95% of the time, no matter what serve I throw at him, he returns it. He himself only has three serves he uses on a normal basis, a backhand serve with variations of no spin, topspin, and underspin. But he's had 55 years to see all kinds of serves. And that experience pays off. Out of everybody in the club, even our top player, this 70 year-old man most likely has the highest serve return percentage. Yet he is in the middle level group of the players in the club. Why? Because everyone else above him has him beat in the rest of the game. 

Originally posted by Honey Originally posted by garwor well, could be even worse...I'm practicing in club for year and still can lost in 3 sets to better/weaker opponent without any serve returned. I understand what you mean garwor, but surely if a player beats you consistently then he is a better player than you regardless of whether he is 'better/weaker' than you.  It doesn't matter if he is beating you only because he has a good serve, the bottom line is he beats you, so he is a better player than you. Judge your standard off results you achieve not by how good you think your shots are.

Well. I said better/weaker and I mean both of them. Both very good players with good serves and good play, and weak players with only serve which not suits to me and nothing except this (like players who only simple push) . For example I have one very good player in my club, he has all shots just great. I play him from time to time, and I never was able to return his serve. Not to return well, but to return ball into his field. He continues to serve his same short serve on same place with variation in spin, tenths of serves, but no way I can return it. I can see spin sometimes, but this fact doesn't help. That's better player.
Or, from time to time I play people who who cant attack, smash and block, neither chop, and who after my serve will almost certainly lost point, but I cant return his. (and it's not 10:10 because I always fail few of my serves :) ). For me it's weak player generally. He will lost to ones I can beat.
But...he will beat me. I'm just anti talented for serve returns. In my club coach never teached this (except flip on simple balls without side or top spin), even when I asked for help, I got answer 'topspin everything!' which ofcourse doesn't work.
Even with people I play regularly, and I know their serves, still there are problems. Could be uncontrollable equipment problem (I glue rubbers before play), but I had same problem even before gluing.

SH, a lot of us have been at that point. Eventually, you will learn how to serve to get a return you want and open the point. You will learn how to step around and loop against bottomspin. You will slowly figure out how to read spin, impact, racket angles/directions, depth, and the like. it takes time and you don't get it all at once. Even when you start getting better at the stuff, sometimes you perform worse in matches as you try to apply what you are growing and you are not as consistant as needed to win more points. Keep at it and look to learn why you lose points and do stuff to vercome it as you grow. A lot of players get stuck at a level not doing this.

Originally posted by garwor well, could be even worse...I'm practicing in club for year and still can lost in 3 sets to better/weaker opponent without any serve returned.

I understand what you mean garwor, but surely if a player beats you consistently then he is a better player than you regardless of whether he is 'better/weaker' than you.  It doesn't matter if he is beating you only because he has a good serve, the bottom line is he beats you, so he is a better player than you.

Judge your standard off results you achieve not by how good you think your shots are.

I've had this problem ever since I can remember. I started playing maybe 4-5 months ago. In practice I always seem to be able to return serves, but as soon as we start playing for points, my returns go out the window! Or more precisely, usually somewhere other than my opponent's side of the table.

When I get lucky and I successfully push back a backspin serve I never know how to get the attacking started! I can't seem to get out of push rallies and into the attacking rallies I prefer.

I'm not that bad for a beginner: I can get the ball on the table consistently when it comes to hit and counterhit rallies, but I seem to lose every game I get into because of my inability to return serves! What do I do?


Edited by Sparrowhawk13 - 13 July 2010 at 09:24